Comments on: Say NO to the Second Post Doc! http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/15/say-no-to-the-second-post-doc/ Science in Canada: Issues affecting trainees Thu, 17 May 2012 01:55:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: A deeper look into the “80% of PhDs who do not become professors” | The Black Hole: Science in Canada, Issues affecting trainees http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/15/say-no-to-the-second-post-doc/comment-page-1/#comment-5990 A deeper look into the “80% of PhDs who do not become professors” | The Black Hole: Science in Canada, Issues affecting trainees Mon, 12 Dec 2011 11:42:16 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=121#comment-5990 [...] and b) Do I stand a reasonable chance of being successful in academia?  Maybe a re-read of our Say NO to the Second Postdocarticle will help people along in decision-making.Until then – keep the discussion going, keep [...] [...] and b) Do I stand a reasonable chance of being successful in academia?  Maybe a re-read of our Say NO to the Second Postdocarticle will help people along in decision-making.Until then – keep the discussion going, keep [...]

]]> By: Education and training of scientists panel at the 2011 Canadian Science Policy Conference « FrogHeart http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/15/say-no-to-the-second-post-doc/comment-page-1/#comment-5741 Education and training of scientists panel at the 2011 Canadian Science Policy Conference « FrogHeart Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:31:45 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=121#comment-5741 [...] will draw from entries on the Black Hole such as the Changing Human Resources in Academia, Say no to the second Postdoc, and Professionals in High Demand.  Briefly, I’ll show statistics on the longer training [...] [...] will draw from entries on the Black Hole such as the Changing Human Resources in Academia, Say no to the second Postdoc, and Professionals in High Demand.  Briefly, I’ll show statistics on the longer training [...]

]]> By: Open Laboratory 2010 – submissions now closed – see all the entries | A Blog Around The Clock http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/15/say-no-to-the-second-post-doc/comment-page-1/#comment-3037 Open Laboratory 2010 – submissions now closed – see all the entries | A Blog Around The Clock Wed, 01 Dec 2010 08:05:16 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=121#comment-3037 [...] Black Hole: Say NO to the Second Post Doc! The Black Hole: Devils of Details: Getting Scientists to Understand How Policy Making Works The [...] [...] Black Hole: Say NO to the Second Post Doc! The Black Hole: Devils of Details: Getting Scientists to Understand How Policy Making Works The [...]

]]> By: Open Laboratory 2010 – the final stretch! | A Blog Around The Clock http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/15/say-no-to-the-second-post-doc/comment-page-1/#comment-3022 Open Laboratory 2010 – the final stretch! | A Blog Around The Clock Mon, 29 Nov 2010 14:02:01 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=121#comment-3022 [...] Black Hole: Say NO to the Second Post Doc! The Black Hole: Devils of Details: Getting Scientists to Understand How Policy Making Works The [...] [...] Black Hole: Say NO to the Second Post Doc! The Black Hole: Devils of Details: Getting Scientists to Understand How Policy Making Works The [...]

]]> By: It’s getting hot – submissions for Open Laboratory 2011 are flying in by the dozens per hour… how about you? | A Blog Around The Clock http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/15/say-no-to-the-second-post-doc/comment-page-1/#comment-3021 It’s getting hot – submissions for Open Laboratory 2011 are flying in by the dozens per hour… how about you? | A Blog Around The Clock Sun, 28 Nov 2010 15:53:40 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=121#comment-3021 [...] Black Hole: Say NO to the Second Post Doc! The Black Hole: Devils of Details: Getting Scientists to Understand How Policy Making Works The [...] [...] Black Hole: Say NO to the Second Post Doc! The Black Hole: Devils of Details: Getting Scientists to Understand How Policy Making Works The [...]

]]> By: Only three days to go – Open Laboratory final stretch for submissions! | A Blog Around The Clock http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/15/say-no-to-the-second-post-doc/comment-page-1/#comment-3019 Only three days to go – Open Laboratory final stretch for submissions! | A Blog Around The Clock Sat, 27 Nov 2010 16:18:29 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=121#comment-3019 [...] Black Hole: Say NO to the Second Post Doc! The Black Hole: Devils of Details: Getting Scientists to Understand How Policy Making Works The [...] [...] Black Hole: Say NO to the Second Post Doc! The Black Hole: Devils of Details: Getting Scientists to Understand How Policy Making Works The [...]

]]> By: Open Laboratory 2010 – only eight days till the deadline! | A Blog Around The Clock http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/15/say-no-to-the-second-post-doc/comment-page-1/#comment-3001 Open Laboratory 2010 – only eight days till the deadline! | A Blog Around The Clock Tue, 23 Nov 2010 02:22:24 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=121#comment-3001 [...] Black Hole: Say NO to the Second Post Doc! The Black Hole: Devils of Details: Getting Scientists to Understand How Policy Making Works The [...] [...] Black Hole: Say NO to the Second Post Doc! The Black Hole: Devils of Details: Getting Scientists to Understand How Policy Making Works The [...]

]]> By: Anonymous http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/15/say-no-to-the-second-post-doc/comment-page-1/#comment-2970 Anonymous Wed, 10 Nov 2010 01:55:29 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=121#comment-2970 I would even go a step farther and advocate saying "NO" to ANY postdoc position. Since the time in grad school has inched up over the years, I would contend that postdoctoral training does little more than give your papers time to get noticed. It makes much more sense to make a career change straight out of grad school: 1) You are still young enough to avoid ageism, 2) Universities have career centers for students that are not always available to postdocs 3) Industry does not want to hire academic also-rans, which is how you will look after 3-6 years working as a postdoc 4) Looking at the folks who graduated with/ahead of me, a few have become tenure track, but the most successful are the ones who immediately left the field. I agree that the "staff scientist" position can help. But at my current institution (they call them "research faculty" here), the salary is not what I would consider acceptable (less than prize postdoc fellows). Of course when I advocate boycotting postdoc positions I get laughed at because no organized labor movement has ever worked in academia. I'll add that I also know people who love being a postdoc, so if that's you, by all means take as many postdoc positions as you want. And asterix, we do not have an emergency in STEM fields in the US. As near as I can tell, this is just propaganda echos from the Sputnik era. See for example: <a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=does-the-us-produce-too-m" rel="nofollow">http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=does-the-us-produce-too-m</a> <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/mikethemadbiologist/2009/06/the_us_can_teach_kids_maths_pr.php?id=125179" rel="nofollow">http://scienceblogs.com/mikethemadbiologist/2009/06/the_us_can_teach_kids_maths_pr.php?id=125179</a> I would even go a step farther and advocate saying “NO” to ANY postdoc position. Since the time in grad school has inched up over the years, I would contend that postdoctoral training does little more than give your papers time to get noticed. It makes much more sense to make a career change straight out of grad school: 1) You are still young enough to avoid ageism, 2) Universities have career centers for students that are not always available to postdocs 3) Industry does not want to hire academic also-rans, which is how you will look after 3-6 years working as a postdoc 4) Looking at the folks who graduated with/ahead of me, a few have become tenure track, but the most successful are the ones who immediately left the field.

I agree that the “staff scientist” position can help. But at my current institution (they call them “research faculty” here), the salary is not what I would consider acceptable (less than prize postdoc fellows).

Of course when I advocate boycotting postdoc positions I get laughed at because no organized labor movement has ever worked in academia. I’ll add that I also know people who love being a postdoc, so if that’s you, by all means take as many postdoc positions as you want.

And asterix, we do not have an emergency in STEM fields in the US. As near as I can tell, this is just propaganda echos from the Sputnik era. See for example:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=does-the-us-produce-too-m
http://scienceblogs.com/mikethemadbiologist/2009/06/the_us_can_teach_kids_maths_pr.php?id=125179

]]> By: Open Laboratory 2011 – three weeks to go! | A Blog Around The Clock http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/15/say-no-to-the-second-post-doc/comment-page-1/#comment-2963 Open Laboratory 2011 – three weeks to go! | A Blog Around The Clock Mon, 08 Nov 2010 18:51:39 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=121#comment-2963 [...] Black Hole: Say NO to the Second Post Doc! The Black Hole: Devils of Details: Getting Scientists to Understand How Policy Making Works The [...] [...] Black Hole: Say NO to the Second Post Doc! The Black Hole: Devils of Details: Getting Scientists to Understand How Policy Making Works The [...]

]]> By: Paul http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/15/say-no-to-the-second-post-doc/comment-page-1/#comment-2939 Paul Thu, 28 Oct 2010 01:25:19 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=121#comment-2939 <blockquote>the staff scientist position......the home for the person that loves benchwork, science, and occasionally dwelling on the bigger picture but is not into teaching at the university or supervising students and…they hate the idea of grant writing. It pays well, has as much job security as “normal” jobs, has great benefits, and doesn’t (usually!) require weekends and evenings.</blockquote> I am an ABD PhD student in CS (expect to graduate next summer) in the US and this is exactly what I'm looking for. I do not care for "autonomy" and "independence", touted as important attractive aspects of a tenure-track faculty position. Over and above these, I value everything that you wrote and the ability to work on highly collaborative and, preferably, interdisciplinary projects. Would a PDF, followed, hopefully, by a permanent researcher position, at a government lab, like Sandia or Argonne, or an industry lab like IBM Research or GE Research, be the career path that is ideally suited to someone such as myself?

the staff scientist position……the home for the person that loves benchwork, science, and occasionally dwelling on the bigger picture but is not into teaching at the university or supervising students and…they hate the idea of grant writing. It pays well, has as much job security as “normal” jobs, has great benefits, and doesn’t (usually!) require weekends and evenings.

I am an ABD PhD student in CS (expect to graduate next summer) in the US and this is exactly what I’m looking for. I do not care for “autonomy” and “independence”, touted as important attractive aspects of a tenure-track faculty position. Over and above these, I value everything that you wrote and the ability to work on highly collaborative and, preferably, interdisciplinary projects. Would a PDF, followed, hopefully, by a permanent researcher position, at a government lab, like Sandia or Argonne, or an industry lab like IBM Research or GE Research, be the career path that is ideally suited to someone such as myself?

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