Comments on: Science is like Baking: The Rise of the Cookie Cutter PhD http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/17/science-is-like-baking-the-rise-of-the-cookie-cutter-phd/ Science in Canada: Issues affecting trainees Thu, 17 May 2012 01:55:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Education and training of scientists panel at 2011 Canadian Science Policy Conference « FrogHeart http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/17/science-is-like-baking-the-rise-of-the-cookie-cutter-phd/comment-page-1/#comment-5740 Education and training of scientists panel at 2011 Canadian Science Policy Conference « FrogHeart Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:14:05 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=138#comment-5740 [...] The UK is a very different beast, but I think there is still overlap – in particular, the challenges facing those seeking an academic post and those debating whether or not to leave the academy.  The one thing that is very different in the UK – and I’m torn as to whether or not it’s a good thing or a bad thing – is that time-to-degree is substantially shorter with PhD programs lasting 3-4 years.  If you’re equipping people to go off into other careers, this is brilliant because they don’t get stuck in a very long PhD, but rather come out with the nuts and bolts of a PhD training.  However, this sort of system also tends to lead to what I would call “safe” projects that will yield results in the limited time frame and leave little room for exploring risky projects.  We talk about this in an old entry on the Black Hole called “The Rise of the Cookie-cutter PhD” (http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/17/science-is-like-baking-the-rise-of-the-cookie-cutter-phd/) [...] [...] The UK is a very different beast, but I think there is still overlap – in particular, the challenges facing those seeking an academic post and those debating whether or not to leave the academy.  The one thing that is very different in the UK – and I’m torn as to whether or not it’s a good thing or a bad thing – is that time-to-degree is substantially shorter with PhD programs lasting 3-4 years.  If you’re equipping people to go off into other careers, this is brilliant because they don’t get stuck in a very long PhD, but rather come out with the nuts and bolts of a PhD training.  However, this sort of system also tends to lead to what I would call “safe” projects that will yield results in the limited time frame and leave little room for exploring risky projects.  We talk about this in an old entry on the Black Hole called “The Rise of the Cookie-cutter PhD” (http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/17/science-is-like-baking-the-rise-of-the-cookie-cutter-phd/) [...]

]]> By: Cookie cutters; agility vs. rigidity; 2010 Canadian Science Policy Conference; Kate Pullinger GG 2009 award winner for fiction « FrogHeart http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/17/science-is-like-baking-the-rise-of-the-cookie-cutter-phd/comment-page-1/#comment-50 Cookie cutters; agility vs. rigidity; 2010 Canadian Science Policy Conference; Kate Pullinger GG 2009 award winner for fiction « FrogHeart Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:17:52 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=138#comment-50 [...] little essay on The Black Hole blog about critical thinking in higher education. It’s called, Science is like Baking: The Rise of the Cookie Cutter PhD. I did have one minor quibble, Together, these forces do what I think we should be very very scared [...] [...] little essay on The Black Hole blog about critical thinking in higher education. It’s called, Science is like Baking: The Rise of the Cookie Cutter PhD. I did have one minor quibble, Together, these forces do what I think we should be very very scared [...]

]]> By: Dave http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/17/science-is-like-baking-the-rise-of-the-cookie-cutter-phd/comment-page-1/#comment-41 Dave Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:09:48 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=138#comment-41 Rachel.... totally agree with the funding comment - medical science PhDs are OFTEN part of large grant-reliant, production oriented projects, and this has consequences on the types of projects that get persued. Overall goals are great, and money for particular experiments/machines is great too, but the work a PhD student gets "assigned" is sometimes not the greatest environment to acquire strong critical thinking skills. I don't necessarily think we're training too many PhDs though... if the goal of training is to produce profs - I totally agree... but I think the goal is to create individuals who can assess a problem critically and be particularly good at crafting/envisioning solutions in their particular field. What we need to do is shift the training process so it accomodates moving people more easily into these careers. Right now we're all being trained to be profs and I contend that you can be an extremely effective (heck even productive) PhD student without the end goal of professor. Rachel…. totally agree with the funding comment – medical science PhDs are OFTEN part of large grant-reliant, production oriented projects, and this has consequences on the types of projects that get persued. Overall goals are great, and money for particular experiments/machines is great too, but the work a PhD student gets “assigned” is sometimes not the greatest environment to acquire strong critical thinking skills.

I don’t necessarily think we’re training too many PhDs though… if the goal of training is to produce profs – I totally agree… but I think the goal is to create individuals who can assess a problem critically and be particularly good at crafting/envisioning solutions in their particular field.

What we need to do is shift the training process so it accomodates moving people more easily into these careers. Right now we’re all being trained to be profs and I contend that you can be an extremely effective (heck even productive) PhD student without the end goal of professor.

]]> By: Dave http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/17/science-is-like-baking-the-rise-of-the-cookie-cutter-phd/comment-page-1/#comment-40 Dave Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:51:12 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=138#comment-40 Cathy - I definitely do not think that three paper PhDs are inherently bad... it's when they are the product of the process that Rob described (prof gives idea and experiments, student performs experiments, no design input from student, papers get published). The funding point is well taken and will be the subject of others posts on this blog because it's no secret that there is more money in sciences (especially medical sciences) and the "equipment costs" only hold so much water (just take a look at the number of medical science PhDs who do not TA or RA vs. those in humanities and social sciences - fundamental problems are afoot and have been developing for years. Instead of curing cancer, why not invest those kinds of dollars into preventative medicine and shifting the way our citizens value their own bodies. A 5 million dollar grant could go a looooongg way... (I'll spout off about this later on too!) Thanks for the comments! Cathy – I definitely do not think that three paper PhDs are inherently bad… it’s when they are the product of the process that Rob described (prof gives idea and experiments, student performs experiments, no design input from student, papers get published). The funding point is well taken and will be the subject of others posts on this blog because it’s no secret that there is more money in sciences (especially medical sciences) and the “equipment costs” only hold so much water (just take a look at the number of medical science PhDs who do not TA or RA vs. those in humanities and social sciences – fundamental problems are afoot and have been developing for years.

Instead of curing cancer, why not invest those kinds of dollars into preventative medicine and shifting the way our citizens value their own bodies. A 5 million dollar grant could go a looooongg way… (I’ll spout off about this later on too!)

Thanks for the comments!

]]> By: Dave http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/17/science-is-like-baking-the-rise-of-the-cookie-cutter-phd/comment-page-1/#comment-39 Dave Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:40:22 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=138#comment-39 Rob, I think reality (and probably the best way forward) is somewhere in between your initial expectations and the extreme version of the cookie cutter PhD. While blue sky thinking definitely has its merits, we do have to relay that information, engage others in meaningful discussion, and learn to cut a project/idea loose when it isn't going somewhere fruitful. Your description of "getting experiments, doing them, and publishing" is a frightening one though and I fear as well that it's becoming the norm in science because of the belief that this is the only way to get a job. I can appreciate that the first few sets of experiments must have a somewhat heavy hand from the prof because PhDs are pretty green... but it is the duty of the prof to make the PhD student come to that experiment instead of giving it to them... otherwise, they'll stay green. Too many profs will just fork it over because of time pressures or download it onto a PDF who have their own time pressures. Rob, I think reality (and probably the best way forward) is somewhere in between your initial expectations and the extreme version of the cookie cutter PhD. While blue sky thinking definitely has its merits, we do have to relay that information, engage others in meaningful discussion, and learn to cut a project/idea loose when it isn’t going somewhere fruitful. Your description of “getting experiments, doing them, and publishing” is a frightening one though and I fear as well that it’s becoming the norm in science because of the belief that this is the only way to get a job. I can appreciate that the first few sets of experiments must have a somewhat heavy hand from the prof because PhDs are pretty green… but it is the duty of the prof to make the PhD student come to that experiment instead of giving it to them… otherwise, they’ll stay green. Too many profs will just fork it over because of time pressures or download it onto a PDF who have their own time pressures.

]]> By: Dave http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/17/science-is-like-baking-the-rise-of-the-cookie-cutter-phd/comment-page-1/#comment-38 Dave Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:24:05 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=138#comment-38 Mel - yes, I've listed many trends from many countries on purpose because it's important to recognize that they exist. There are definitely 3 papers per 3 yr PhD expectations put on people in England and in Holland... not sure about elsewhere. I don't know what the correct "formula" is for a PhD, but I was simply advocating that we move away from "deliverables" and toward training individuals to be able to create the research questions and identify the gaps in the literature - which are skills that will make them better for any career they choose. Mel – yes, I’ve listed many trends from many countries on purpose because it’s important to recognize that they exist. There are definitely 3 papers per 3 yr PhD expectations put on people in England and in Holland… not sure about elsewhere. I don’t know what the correct “formula” is for a PhD, but I was simply advocating that we move away from “deliverables” and toward training individuals to be able to create the research questions and identify the gaps in the literature – which are skills that will make them better for any career they choose.

]]> By: Rachel http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/17/science-is-like-baking-the-rise-of-the-cookie-cutter-phd/comment-page-1/#comment-37 Rachel Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:00:37 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=138#comment-37 I know this site is about education and work in the sciences, but I think it is worth pointing out that the sciences have alot to learn from the social sciences, where I think we are challenged to think about big ideas. However, we could all benefit from more critical thinking. I think it all comes down to funding...in sciences you are most likely working as part of a large funded project that needs outcomes to get funded further...Alot of onus is on the supervisor - in many respects - right down to bringing a thesis to defense. Which is why I guess it's good that the tenure process is so rigorous and faculty jobs aren't a dime a dozen. I think we should actually accept and 'train'- still hate that word, less PhDs and create more actual jobs for people with PhDs as members of research teams, instead of using students to pump out results for Faculty members. I know this site is about education and work in the sciences, but I think it is worth pointing out that the sciences have alot to learn from the social sciences, where I think we are challenged to think about big ideas. However, we could all benefit from more critical thinking. I think it all comes down to funding…in sciences you are most likely working as part of a large funded project that needs outcomes to get funded further…Alot of onus is on the supervisor – in many respects – right down to bringing a thesis to defense. Which is why I guess it’s good that the tenure process is so rigorous and faculty jobs aren’t a dime a dozen. I think we should actually accept and ‘train’- still hate that word, less PhDs and create more actual jobs for people with PhDs as members of research teams, instead of using students to pump out results for Faculty members.

]]> By: Cathy http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/17/science-is-like-baking-the-rise-of-the-cookie-cutter-phd/comment-page-1/#comment-36 Cathy Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:33:19 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=138#comment-36 Good post. I hate to say it but I had a 3 paper PhD in Canada. It wasn't designed that way but it still happened. I think funding sources are moving more to the 'tangible outcomes' and it will push people more into the cookie cutter mentality. Basic research is needed to help find the next big questions (and answers). Good post. I hate to say it but I had a 3 paper PhD in Canada. It wasn’t designed that way but it still happened. I think funding sources are moving more to the ‘tangible outcomes’ and it will push people more into the cookie cutter mentality. Basic research is needed to help find the next big questions (and answers).

]]> By: Rob http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/17/science-is-like-baking-the-rise-of-the-cookie-cutter-phd/comment-page-1/#comment-35 Rob Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:01:21 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=138#comment-35 Great post. I'm afraid I was quite naive when I started my PhD, and assumed that the PhD meant deep thought and unexpected insights. Alas, in science at least, you are expected to be married to the bench, hammering out experiment after experiment. The sad thing is how few PhD candidates see anything wrong with this. I saw too many students who would literally get a list of experiments from their supervisors, generate the data, deliver it for analysis, and then repeat. And yet, they didn't complain, they liked it that way. It meant they didn't "waste time" on unproductive avenues, they could get their papers and graduate. Very sad. Great post. I’m afraid I was quite naive when I started my PhD, and assumed that the PhD meant deep thought and unexpected insights. Alas, in science at least, you are expected to be married to the bench, hammering out experiment after experiment. The sad thing is how few PhD candidates see anything wrong with this. I saw too many students who would literally get a list of experiments from their supervisors, generate the data, deliver it for analysis, and then repeat. And yet, they didn’t complain, they liked it that way. It meant they didn’t “waste time” on unproductive avenues, they could get their papers and graduate.

Very sad.

]]> By: Mel http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/2009/11/17/science-is-like-baking-the-rise-of-the-cookie-cutter-phd/comment-page-1/#comment-34 Mel Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:29:33 +0000 http://scienceadvocacy.org/Blog/?p=138#comment-34 To be fair, the "3 papers=PhD" and the "shorter=better" components you are talking about represent attitudes in different countries. I have yet to see a manuscript based, 3-year, North American PhD :) Perhaps such things do exist where you are now? To be fair, the “3 papers=PhD” and the “shorter=better” components you are talking about represent attitudes in different countries. I have yet to see a manuscript based, 3-year, North American PhD :) Perhaps such things do exist where you are now?

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